Logo

The US Justice Needs Study - Shared screen with speaker view
IT@DU | Weston
28:52
And we’re live
Joshua Lenon
29:06
Good morning everyone!
D.C. Bar GLPC
29:40
Good morning!
Logan Cornett (she, her)
29:40
I can't see any video at all--that's normal?
Andrew Cardy
29:52
Good morning! :)
Stephanie Bond
29:52
Good morning!
Linda Seely
29:59
Is anyone speaking?
Jayne Reardon
30:00
Good morning all!!
Martin Gramatikov
30:01
Good morning!
Stephanie Bond
30:02
Hello everyone
Amy Downing (she, her)
30:10
what do you see on your screen?
Sonja Ebron
30:10
Good morning to all!
Melissa Moss
30:12
Good morning everyone
Roberto Lopez-Davila
30:28
Good morning from Puerto Rico! Looking forward to the discussion and of course the report!
Stephanie Bond
36:32
Prevention of justice problems? How?
Stephanie Bond
36:39
Impossible.
Amy Downing (she, her)
37:47
FYI - from Janet. . .Whoever is watching the chat - S Bond has been problematic in prior events
Stephanie Bond
38:48
Access to justice requires rational morality and rational philosophy. Without them, you cannot prevent injustice — irrational philosophy CAUSES injustice.
Martin Gramatikov
38:49
Thanks for the note Amy. Maurits -- can you respond to that. After my intervention I will also look at Bond's messages.
Stephanie Bond
39:48
The essence of “people-centered” should be rational. That is the essence of the human being. We are the rational animal.
Maurits Barendrecht
40:37
Better not to go to far into side-discussions, like philosophy
Kent Pankey
40:58
For good or ill, legal and scientific communities operate with different concepts of evidence and truth which contribute to different perceptions of "evidence-based decision-making."
Joshua Lenon
41:53
@StephanieBoyd Prevention is about the harms from known systemic injustice issues. Why let them occur at all?
Stephanie Bond
42:46
Name a systemic injustice @Joshua Lenon
Stephanie Bond
43:01
Antitrust is a systemic injustice.
Stephanie Bond
43:18
Eminent domain is a systemic injustice. Taxation is a systemic injustice. Are you on board to do away with them?
Stephanie Bond
43:31
Let’s prevent the harm being done by those things.
Peter Baugher
43:57
What is HiiL?
Stephanie Bond
43:58
Good point, Joshua. We can and should do away with such systemic injustices.
Nicole Steward
44:37
Poverty is the biggest systemic injustice.
Stephanie Bond
45:00
Poverty is easily solved by freedom and capitalism. Poverty is mankind’s natural state.
Gabby Rialland
45:11
@petar Baugher -> https://www.hiil.org/
Nathan Jensen
45:16
Have any focus groups been conducted? An internet only panel (no matter how large) may not be entirely representative in access to justice issues.
Kent Pankey
45:25
Taxation is not an inherent systemic injustice. How taxation is implemented is, too often, unjust. It is not helpful to ignore the distinction.
Amy Downing (she, her)
45:25
talking with DU about options for Stephanie Bond's volume and content in the chat. we can remove her form the webinar but not sure if we want to do that. Thoughts?
Kellye Testy
45:34
Thanks to IAALS and HiiL for this important study; look forward to working together to build the future of justice. Candidates coming into law WANT to make a people-centered justice impact! Kellye Testy, President, Law School Admission Council
Stephanie Bond
45:35
It is not a systemic injustice. It is the normal way of things. Our rich lifestyle is not representative of the usual way of life for most of man’s existence on Earth.
Iris McKay
45:43
Imbalance between parties' litigation budgets is huge issue in civil courts
Nicole Steward
45:44
Poverty is caused by greed.
Stephanie Bond
45:48
Taxation should be illegal.
Amy Downing (she, her)
46:28
we have had experience with her with this issue in the past
Stephanie Bond
46:28
Poverty is not caused by greed. It is the starting point for every person. You know nothing, you have nothing, you must act to acquire knowledge, skills and the material wealth that is to sustain & further your life.
Melissa Moss
46:46
@peterbaugher Hiil is a global access to justice organization. https://www.hiil.org/
Stephanie Bond
46:47
If you are serious about eradicating poverty, support the freedom to create wealth, i.e., capitalism.
Joshua Lenon
46:52
@stepaniebond, I think you are off topic for this presentation. I’d be happy to discuss this offline for you.
Stephanie Bond
47:24
The system of government — and access to justice — is important. The judicial system is the linchpin of capitalist societies.
Linda Seely
48:06
Where can I find and download the report?
Nicole Steward
48:12
I can't really see the full slide, is there a way to fix that?
Carol Dalenko (NC)
48:32
How to I get involved in this? I have been alone battling unconstitutional Gatekeeper Orders legislated from the bench in NC that bar self-represented litigants from the courts without an attorney and also deters attorneys with pages and pages of defamatory findings and threats of contempt..
Nathan Jensen
48:46
@Nicole Steward, there should be a bar between the presenter picture and the slide that you can adjust
Nicole Steward
48:50
Oh I see, I changed to "fit to window."
Brittany Kauffman (she/her)
49:39
The report will be released later this morning, and we will share it with all webinar attendees.
Kent Pankey
50:03
The prevalence of legal problems may be more extensive than people realize because many people don't recognize that their problems have a legal dimension.
Stephanie Bond
50:23
Good point, Kent Pankey. That is true.
jasontashea
51:28
What differentiates “crime problems” and “police”?
Joshua Lenon
53:00
What is the definition of “resolved?"
Stephanie Bond
53:28
That is a good question.
Nathan Jensen
53:55
Are the 22 and 29 percent totals 22 and 29 percent of the 51% or 22 and 29 percent of the total (knowing that 22+29=51)?
Brittany Kauffman (she/her)
54:25
Crime problems include subcategories such as theft and assault. Police includes subcategories such as arrests and physical violence by police.
Nikki Koster
55:27
will these slides be available after the presentation?
Amy Downing (she, her)
55:49
Yes, this video will be posted to the IAALS site
D.C. Bar GLPC
55:57
Is the survey data available broken down by geographical area?
Carol Dalenko (NC)
56:33
CONTRACT DISPUTES with large contractors having deep pockets for attorneys are a huge problem for struggling small business owners and affects our economy. Agree?
Ken Liu
56:46
Are we able to get a copy of these slides?
James Teufel
57:02
Will the slides from the presentation be shared along with the video? Thank you for this study and presentation.
Stephanie Bond
57:17
What about going to school but not getting a real education? Being in a building labeled “school” is not resulting in kids knowing how to real, write, or think.
Amy Downing (she, her)
57:20
Yes, this video will be posted to the IAALS site
Brittany Kauffman (she/her)
57:21
We will share the slides with attendees following the presentation.
Stephanie Bond
57:38
Thanks, Brittany. That would be great.
Kellye Testy
58:49
Is there any info on how these findings differ in any significant way from long-standing legal services needs data in the US and in the states? It seems very consistent to me with what we have seen as the justice gaps for a long time. That does not mean we addressed those gaps, but we know they are there.
Maurits Barendrecht
59:20
Martin, please look at time!
Kent Pankey
01:00:30
Percentages don't look right for immigration.
Matt Moore
01:03:12
Where can you download the report?
Martin Gramatikov
01:04:03
Is the survey data available broken down by geographical area? In the report it is not for reasons of brevity. Very soon interactive dashboard will provide access to the data where some geographical splits can be done.
Brittany Kauffman (she/her)
01:04:32
We're excited for the interest in the report, which has so much more data than we can cover today! The report will be released later today, and we'll be sharing it with all those attending.
D.C. Bar GLPC
01:04:38
Thank you, Martin.
D.C. Bar GLPC
01:05:12
When will the dashboard be available?
Martin Gramatikov
01:05:57
When will the dashboard be available? We are working hard to make sure the dashboard will be finished in about 2 weeks from now.
Martin Gramatikov
01:06:19
Where can you download the report? One place is: https://www.hiil.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Justice-Needs-and-Satisfaction-in-the-US-web.pdf
Martin Gramatikov
01:06:51
The report is also on IAALS' web site: https://iaals.du.edu/sites/default/files/documents/publications/justice-needs-and-satisfaction-us.pdf
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:08:02
THIS AFFECTS ALL CATEGORIES OF ALL PEOPLE AND ALL LEGAL ISSUES: The self-perpetuating "Gatekeeper Orders" promulated by attorneys and judges throughout NC over the last 20 years to bar SRLs from the courts without an attorney. THIS MUST STOP. Can IAALS get the word out?
Andrew Solomon (USAID)
01:08:17
Thanks Martin for defining "legal problems". How could (or should) we distinguish "legal problems" and "justice needs"? Do we have a good definition of "justice needs"?
Martin Gramatikov
01:08:35
Percentages don't look right for immigration. Good point. The Immigration problems are very few in the dataset. So we caution against extrapolation of Immigration problems. Survey research, in general, is not the best strategy for studying the legal problems of immigrants.
D.C. Bar GLPC
01:08:35
thank you so much!
Stephanie Bond
01:09:01
Thank you for the report!
Nathan Jensen
01:09:32
It's telling that the most common legal problem had the lowest percentage of those who sought advice regarding it.
Katie Dilks
01:10:12
Were sources of information/advice a fill in the blank or a set list? I'm curious about libraries not being on the list.
Cindy Yeung (she/her/hers)
01:10:19
How did you differentiate between legal aid and a lawyer?
Martin Gramatikov
01:10:47
How could (or should) we distinguish "legal problems" and "justice needs"? Do we have a good definition of "justice needs"? Thanks, Andrew! Rebecca Sandefur has a good piece where she discusses the differences between legal problems, justice problems, justice needs, justiciable events etc. Will look up where this work is available.
Paul Prettitore
01:11:34
Is there any chance the raw data will be made public?
Bonnie Hough
01:11:36
Why do we think that people traditionally went to attorneys and courts? That may be what attorneys have thought, but many people have never had access to the legal system. Domestic violence was not even identified as a legal problem until the last 40 years or so.
Nicole Bradick
01:11:45
This report will be incredibly useful. I’m so grateful to you all for this. It’s a gold mine of information that will let us better address the problems. 🙏
Sonja Ebron
01:11:57
Extremely impressive study design. Appreciate the deep dive on this issue.
James Teufel
01:12:27
Is it this paper that distinguishes events, needs, and case? https://scholarship.law.uci.edu/ucilr/vol11/iss3/7/
Andrew Solomon (USAID)
01:12:54
@martin. Yes, thanks for the reminder of Rebecca Sandefur's excellent work--so foundational to PCJ.
Martin Gramatikov
01:13:06
Were sources of information/advice a fill in the blank or a set list? It was a set list. Indeed - library was not part of the list.
Nicole Bradick
01:13:35
This report will be incredibly useful. I’m so grateful to you all for this. It’s a gold mine of information that will let us better address the problems. 🙏
Bonnie Hough
01:13:36
In a similar survey in California, 10% of the general public and 16% of low-income people received assistance from court-based self-help centers. https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Access-to-Justice/Initiatives/California-Justice-Gap-Study
Martin Gramatikov
01:14:12
@James - thanks, this is indeed the piece. And of course, you're co-author -- sorry for not mentioning you at first place
Joshua Lenon
01:14:23
Agreed, @NicoleBradick.
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:14:48
It's all moot if the courts won't uphold the law and mock constitutional rights of SRLs with impunity. The crisis is at the helm - on the bench.
Melissa Moss
01:15:07
+1 @nicole and @Josh
Stephanie Bond
01:15:10
When are courts going to hire more judges? That is what is needed in North America.
Stephanie Bond
01:15:53
Empower different levels of judging — that is what is needed. Helping people be ready for court or dispute resolution is no good if there are not more people who are capable of hearing & resolving the disputes.
Andrea Dorsey
01:15:57
Agreed, @CarolDalenko
Martin Gramatikov
01:17:57
When are courts going to hire more judges? The key interpretation of the data is that the many and diverse problems require looking beyond the "court model" of resolving legal problems. Legal entrepreneurship, deregulation, use of best practices are some of the directions advocated. It's in the Overall conclusions section of the report.
Stephanie Bond
01:18:08
What unites the different people, journeys, problems and solutions?
Stephanie Bond
01:18:37
Thanks, Martin. Deregulation sounds good!
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:18:47
The judges we have should be working a full week and take time to read all documents and resolve the disputes with care.
Stephanie Bond
01:18:54
Legal entrepreneurship is interesting. I look forward to reading the Overall conclusions section. Thanks!
Fritz Mulhauser
01:20:37
Does the report address limits of conclusions stemming form the essential choice of method—online voluntary survey? Legal services folks, disc using almost any aspect of digital work, emphasize the “digital divide” and the limitsbof low income populations’ access to the 21st century digital world. On the other hand,Pew data suggest wide penegtration so the concern may be may be misperceived.
Stephanie Bond
01:21:12
Fritz, what other kinds of survey method would you like to see?
Kent Pankey
01:21:17
Actually, data at the National Center for State Courts and elsewhere don't necessarily support the need for more judges. Courts' problems are more related to management (maximizing use of resources) than to quantity of resources. Where court resources could best be augmented are in staffing and technology rather than judges. Really, more forms and quantity of legal assistance (as in medical field differentiation) would make a greater difference in improving ATJ than judges.
Stephanie Bond
01:22:05
Kent, I worked with Judges and I am appalled that a National Center for State Courts is not recognizing that Judicial numbers have not kept up with population. I question the validity of such a Center.
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:22:09
Agree
Kent Pankey
01:23:15
Population is not the determining factor for judgeship or staffing needs in courts. Workload is. Case filings have actually been declining relative to population over the last generation.
Stephanie Bond
01:23:23
How can economies of scale be realized in a people-centered kind of system? Each case is unique — you cannot bring in 50 cases and resolve them all at once when they involve disparate opponents, disparate issues.
Martin Gramatikov
01:23:32
Great point, Kent. One clear take away is that American people encounter lots of problems for which simple cost-benefit analysis tells that going to a formal institution such as court is not a great option. Leaving them unresolved is not an option.
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:23:46
Agree with Kent Pan... for the need of better technology and more law clerks to help judges read and decipher plethora of documents in cases.
Stephanie Bond
01:23:50
Higher population = higher workload. There are more cases in Toronto than there are in northern Ontario.
Kent Pankey
01:24:13
The data doesn't support your position Ms. Bond.
Stephanie Bond
01:24:24
And it is good to encourage people to use different ways of resolving disputes.
Kent Pankey
01:24:41
I'm talking about U.S. case filings.
Stephanie Bond
01:25:03
Well, Kent, I cannot account for why the data that exists on the ground — inability of all the cases that there are — to be heard sooner rather than later — it is down to how much each judge can do, per day.
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:25:09
Yes to Alternative Dispute Resolution.
Stephanie Bond
01:25:16
The same issues occur in both US and Canada.
Stephanie Bond
01:25:34
ADR can help to alleviate the workload at the court.
Scott Bales
01:25:52
IAALS and HiiL: Congratulations on the release of this impactful study.
Hanna Kaufman
01:26:18
Thanks very much for this information!
Fritz Mulhauser
01:26:19
DC advocates tried a legal needs study based on finding low income persons directly to talk to them. Very hard work. Other problems of generalizablitty of course.
Janet Cornell
01:26:23
Thanks for the great information and "tease" to us to think about it all!
Stephanie Bond
01:26:41
And Kent — the problem of not enough judges is palpable for the judges — and is not mentioned in the National Data that are released by Canada federal groups. So — I totally believe that the US center is doing the same. Ignoring the obvious answer because the solution is — hire more judges.
Paul Prettitore
01:26:55
Qualitative surveys are a nice complement to the quantitative.
Stephanie Bond
01:27:13
This survey looks like it has a lot of helpful information. Thank you, IAALS and HIIL.
Angie VanSchoick - CO
01:27:14
Thank you for this webinar. I found it interesting. Thank you, too, for the discussions in the chat.
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:27:22
Some law schools in the U.S. teach law students to be convincing liars. The ABA should not certify these law schools.
Martin Gramatikov
01:27:31
Paul - completely agree. Deep diving into the 'why' questions is very important.
Brandon Kimura
01:27:49
Thank you IAALS, HiiL, and all involved.
NSRLP
01:28:02
Thank you everyone, this was so wonderful and informative, and I can’t wait to read the report
Carol Dalenko (NC)
01:28:22
Can IAALS get a lobby group started to address these issues to various Legislators?
Ken Liu
01:28:26
Thanks for this important survey. Hope our country as a whole will take more action to solve this crisis.
Marcus Reinkensmeyer
01:28:29
From Arizona courts, our thanks as well!
Elisa (Emo) Overall - she/hers
01:28:30
Colorado is lucky to have IAALS in-house. Thank you all and looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks!
Andres Y. Gonzalez
01:28:33
Thank you so much for this great presentation. and for making all this knowledge available to us. I look forward to reading the report!